Please can we have a custom close reason "...doesn't start from the text..."?

Question

I don't know the stats but I think all our current close reasons are used regularly, so we don't want to change them.

However there has also been significant support for having a close reason that explicitly calls out questions that in essence don't start from a text, like this one - which mentions Matthew 5:3-4 but really begins with the idea of counseling. (That the questions asks how verse 3 or 4 can be used is one of the clues into the OPs intent.)

So please can we add an additional fourth 'close' reason for those of us who'd like to use this option:

Exegetical questions that don't start from the text, but from a preconceived idea or framework, are off topic.

Answer 1

In the last 90 days, here are the close reason statistics:

Name                                       Closed     Closed->Edited Closed->Reopened Cl->Ed->Re 
------------------------------------------ ---------- -------------- ---------------- ---------- 
duplicate                                          17          3              2                1 
off-topic - Other (add a comment explainin          7          0              0                0 
off-topic - Questions **searching for a te          3          0              0                0 
off-topic - Questions **without a specific         26          4              2                1 
off-topic - Questions regarding **systemat          8          1              1                1 
off-topic - belongs on another site in the          1          0              0                0 
primarily opinion-based                             3          1              0                0 
too broad                                           4          2              1                1 
unclear what you're asking                         14          4              4                4 

(9 row(s) returned)

% of Closed Name                                       Closed->Edited Closed->Reopened Cl->Ed->Re 
----------- ------------------------------------------ -------------- ---------------- ---------- 
 20.5%      duplicate                                   17.6%          11.8%            33.3%     
  8.4%      off-topic - Other (add a comment explainin   0.0%           0.0%                      
  3.6%      off-topic - Questions **searching for a te   0.0%           0.0%                      
 31.3%      off-topic - Questions **without a specific  15.4%           7.7%            25.0%     
  9.6%      off-topic - Questions regarding **systemat  12.5%          12.5%           100.0%     
  1.2%      off-topic - belongs on another site in the   0.0%           0.0%                      
  3.6%      primarily opinion-based                     33.3%           0.0%             0.0%     
  4.8%      too broad                                   50.0%          25.0%            50.0%     
 16.9%      unclear what you're asking                  28.6%          28.6%           100.0%     

(9 row(s) returned)

Questions Custom OT Reason (other)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
--------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
1         I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is asking for an opinion / pastoral advice.                                                                                                                                                                                                
1         This question is primarily a history question, not a biblical hermeneutics question.                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
1         I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it appears to be asking specifically about application of a text, rather than interpretation of the meaning of the text. The former is outside the scope of this site.                                                                        
1         I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because [questions that don't start from the text, but rather from a preconceived idea or framework, are off topic](https://hermeneutics.meta.stackexchange.com/a/1088/43)                                                                             
1         I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because the question starts from an idea, not the text itself.                                                                                                                                                                                        
1         I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it has nothing to do with hermeneutics but finding where to buy something.                                                                                                                                                                    
1         I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because [it is about the application of the text in a modern context](https://hermeneutics.meta.stackexchange.com/q/207/2215), and this is beyond this site's remit.                                                                                   
1         I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because (1) it does not deal with interpreting of a specific text, (2) there is no set answer to give because various forms of the text exist in Greek that will vary the character count, and (3) the character count is irrelevant to hermeneutics. 

It appears the least used reason is:

Questions searching for a text are off-topic. For more information, see this meta post.

There are roughly as many write-in reasons that match the general proposal of this meta question. It's been awhile since I kept up with questions, but I would guess that the proposed close reason would be more useful than the searching for a text reason. On the other hand, I suspect there's a good deal of overlap with the systematic theology reason. In fact that seems a proper subset of the proposed reason.

My suggestion: retire the systematic theology reason and substitute the doesn't start from the text reason.

Answer 2

Moderator note: It seems like discussion on this issue has run its course and this proposal had the best support and the most fine tuning. The site's close reasons have been duly updated. Any further discussion should probably happen in a new meta post. — Caleb

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Background

Incorporating ideas from Davïd's answer here, as well as his answer elsewhere, curiousdannii's critique of the "start" language, and Jack Douglas's view to simplicity, while also considering the current close reasons, which are...

• Questions without a specific Bible passage are off-topic as we cannot apply hermeneutical methods to text if there is no text.
• Questions regarding systematic theology are off-topic. For more information, see this meta post.
• Questions searching for a text are off-topic. For more information, see this meta post.

... and what appears to be a move in consensus to remove the "systematic theology" reason, while also considering that even though "searching for a text" is rather unused, it is the best response to a "where does it say..." type question.

Proposal

I propose tweaking the first reason, a wholesale changing the systematic theology reason to the second one given below, a slight tweaking to keep the third reason:

[NOTE: 2nd reason updated to reflect a tweaked version of Caleb's commented suggestion.]

• Questions about biblical topics but without a specific Bible passage are off-topic as we cannot apply hermeneutical methods to text if there is no text referenced.
• Questions including a biblical text but that are not seeking an answer about (1) the history of that biblical text itself or (2) the meaning of that biblical text either in context or through a process of arriving at a particular interpretation of it are off-topic.
• Questions searching for a text about some topic are off-topic. For more information, see this meta post.

Further Discussion

This way we:

1. Keep "without a specific Bible passage" for any questions that are about Bible topics but failed to provide any anchor to the text at all.
2. Educate what two categories of questions that do include a bible text are acceptable--history of the text or original context meaning of the text.
3. Keep the "searching for a text" for those "where..." questions.
4. Allow hermeneutical approaches (all the reasons above note a relation to questions about biblical topics or references; note that the original "without specific Bible passage" reason's wording could have been used to close a heremeneutical approach question--and if I recall, almost once was, but at the moment cannot find my comment related to that event).
5. Other off-topic reasons should generally be covered by the pushing to another SE site or giving the custom reasoning.

Note that the rephrasing allows:

1. The using of a theological term in phrasing one's question (Trinity, hypostatic union, soteriology, etc.); the questioner is allowed to express his/her "framework" of understanding through such terms, but the off-topic close reasons do require that a connection of their logic/terminology be made to a particular text, and that logic/terminology may be challenged by one answering the question. It may also be "closed" via reason #2 if no mentions is made about seeking actual meaning of the text. For example:

   Is John 1:1 a reference to the Trinity?

   To me, this is a poorly worded question, as it really is not asking about the "meaning" of John 1:1, but simply whether that passage supposedly upholds some theological doctrine. Rather, something like:

   What does John 1:1 teach about the nature of God and the Word and their relationship? It seems to uphold the idea of the Christian Trinity, but does it?

   To me, this question is fine. Yes, it references a theological (from Christian orthodoxy) concept of Trinity, but it has grounded the discussion in trying to determine what the text is actually saying first, while noting that the questioner understands it to relate to the theological concept.

   Perhaps another close reason to add to the three proposed above might head off questions like the former:

   • Questions including a biblical text, but seeking to simply know whether or not it supports or refutes a particular theological or sectarian viewpoint are off-topic.

2. Comparison questions (how text A's statement relates to text B's statement), as at least one of the two texts will be the historical/theological background for the other text, and that other text either completely unrelated (which an answer could argue for) or some type of commentary or clarification of the former background text, which then may or may not have been directly in view of the original (human*) author of the former text.

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* Those like myself that view the text as equally divinely authored would consider later clarification/commentary as already in the mind of God even at the point of the earlier revelation.

Answer 3

Yet another option:

̶Q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶l̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶f̶o̶c̶u̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶b̶l̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶t̶e̶x̶t̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶m̶e̶n̶e̶u̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶r̶o̶a̶c̶h̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶ ̶t̶o̶p̶i̶c̶.̶

Tweak:

Questions which fail to focus on the interpretation of the biblical text or hermeneutical approaches to it are off topic.

I think we all agree pretty much on what we want to "prohibit", but I'm not sure we've nailed the best way to signal it in the reasons offered:

• the "...regarding systematic theology..." reason that sparked this has been found wanting for various reasons;
• OP's proposal here ("Exegetical questions that don't start from the text...") seems to me almost an oxymoron, although I see what's intended and can imagine the sort of question this would address;
• "Exegetical questions that start from a preconceived idea or framework..." strikes me as problematic (although I see etc. etc.) because every question in some sense starts from a preconceived idea or framework.

I've tried to work out what would disallow the "counselling" question, or (say) something doctrinal-which-does-not-start-from-the-text, and the suggestion above is the best I could do.

I think it meets the need without falling foul of the pedantic tics which mar (imo) the current suggestions. Any tweaks? Any takers? Or am I missing the point.

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Update - A few thoughts in response to the helpful comment trail:

• "biblical text" was phrased as it was so as not to exclude on-topic questions that involve more than one text: if one says "a specific text", then it probably needs to be slightly enlarged: "a specific text (or texts)" or something like that;
• still, "biblical text" sounds a bit poncey to me, but try to replace it and it just gets messier (or at least, that's what I'm finding); we always have a meta for this anyway;
• I was thinking it was plain English in non-technical words -- except for "hermeneutical", of course, but I thought that was fair game in context;
• my sense tallies with @curiousdannii's, that where an OP wants to take the question is usually more problematic than the textual starting point (in fact, I think this is at the heart of @JackDouglas's perception that kicked off this round of discussion) -- and that's why I opted for "focus" as really joining start-and-end: what is at the "heart" of the question: the text? or "preconceived idea or framework" that is off-topic?

And I, too, would love to have ten examples (or so, like the Site Review) of Q's which have been closed as "off-topic". I don't have time right now to devise the data query. But someone might have done this already.....

Answer 4

I'd like to see this implemented in lieu of the systematic theology close reason, but worded as follows for clarity:

Questions that start from a preconceived idea or framework rather than a specific biblical text are off topic.

The caveat of a specified hermeneutical framework is also notable (i.e. such questions are on topic).